Stressed, Depressed, or Feeling Stuck? Free Yourself with Byron Katie’s 4 Questions

Marie Forleo: Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and welcome to the Marie Forleo Podcast. You are in for a treat today because we’re talking with one of the most profound spiritual teachers of our time, Ms. Byron Katie. She’s the creator of what’s known as The Work, which is a very simple yet profound process of self-inquiry. I have to tell you, it’s not only helped me, but it’s transformed the lives of millions around the world. Katie has authored numerous books including Loving What Is, I Need Your Love – Is That True, A thousand Names for Joy, and A Mind at Home With Itself. Here we go. Hi.

Byron Katie: Marie, hi.

Marie Forleo: Thank you so much for being here today. I figured we’ll just get started. We’ll just do it.

Byron Katie: Good.

Marie Forleo: Excellent.

Byron Katie: Good, good.

Marie Forleo: First Katie, I want to thank you because The Work has made such a tremendous impact on my life and continues to this day. I am super grateful for this conversation. For folks that are listening right now that may not know your story, I’m wondering if you can share a little bit about what was happening way back in February of 1986, and what life was like when you went to the Hope House.

Byron Katie: But you know it was years of depression, more than a decade of serious deep depression and suicidal and it was hard. Anyone that’s been depressed understands what that’s like. It was tough and as I lay sleeping on the floor one day, I was so full of self-loathing, I didn’t believe I even deserved a bed to sleep in. So I’d actually sleep beside my bed and one day as I lay sleeping bug crawled over my foot and I opened my eyes and just like we all do every morning, we wake up and we have the thought, “I’m awake, I’m late for work, I’ll sleep a little longer,” and just prior to that were fast asleep. There really is no world in our consciousness. So this happened, the bug crawled over my foot, I opened my eyes just like every morning, but there was no identification there.

There was… it’s as though I was… I woke up with such a start that there was no time for the mental to check in. And so in that space of non-identification, I saw how the world, I saw how my world was made. And it was… when I saw it, it was so clear and the first sound that I heard was the laughter that was just rolling out of what I saw then, this body, which was quite a shock. I mean everything was just so clear. I saw, Marie, what’s important about that is that it’s for all of us to understand just like I did on the floor, it’s available to understand that when we believe our thoughts, we suffer, and when we question them, we don’t suffer. I’ve come to see this is true for every human being.

I saw in that moment like a window and I saw the sky out of the window and I saw the trees and I… but there was no meaning, there was no meaning to it until I believed that the mind began to identify them, that trees, sky, clouds, wall, bed. That was the marriage of how my world began. The world named, the world and what we believe it to be. So there’s no harm in tree. But then when I started having thoughts like “it’s an ugly tree, it needs to be chopped down, it’s in my way,” those kinds of thoughts it’s not to change them, it’s just to question them and see what is valid for each of us as a more aware human being to come to understand our own value.

Marie Forleo: I think it’s so fascinating because it’s like, were you around 44 or 46 when this happened?

Byron Katie: I was 43.

Marie Forleo: 43.

Byron Katie: Yeah, it was February of 1986. But you know, as we say, I was born in this world as being in an apparent physical body in 1943. But I wasn’t conscious, I had to believe myself in like, maybe my mother said it’s a tree and I just would go on with my life. It’s a tree and maybe I just say “goo goo, gah gah,” drool. And so in some moments someone said, “It’s a tree,” and then I attached to the concept of that is a tree, that’s its name. I  named it just like I saw on the floor in a whole other way. But when I believed… the first time they believed is what brought me into this apparent world. Prior to that we can say I was just, I was not born of the kind of consciousness that we hold here in this world we called earth.

Marie Forleo: Yes. I was first introduced to The Work and to you through your book, Loving What Is, and it just was moment after moment of laughter and oh my goodness. Yes, yes, yes. And so, again I just really do want to thank you because that was back, I believe in the late 90s, early 2000s for me, and every single time I re-encounter you and The Work, I can just feel layers and layers of stress literally melt away from me.

Byron Katie: Doesn’t it run deeper each time?

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: It’s like we’re not just talking about, let’s go back to the tree. We’re not just talking about is it a tree, is that true? It’s a tree. Is it true? It’s not that it affects the way we see everything to question anything and to meditate in those four questions and turn arounds. It shifts the way we see everyone and everything, and the beautiful thing about it is, don’t we become kinder and more aware and then touch?

Marie Forleo: Yes. And more lighthearted.

Byron Katie: Yes.

Marie Forleo: One of your insights. I have a bunch and I’ll just kind of we’ll dance around and wherever we go we’ll go kind of like life. But one of the things that you say is “the only time we suffer is when we believe a thought that argues with what is wanting reality to be different than it is, is hopeless.” I loved this. This was a part of your little booklet. We think these thoughts all day. Some of us, we think people should be kinder, or children should be well behaved, or my husband or my wife should agree with me or I should be prettier or thinner or more successful. I love that you wrote this. “These thoughts are ways of wanting reality to be different than it is. If you think this sounds depressing, you’re right, all of the stress that we feel is caused by arguing with what is.”

Byron Katie: Oh, so true.

Marie Forleo: It is so true, and I remember I was with you for this recent New Year’s cleanse that you did right around New Year’s.

Byron Katie: Oh good.

Marie Forleo: Yeah. And I just hearing you say these types of words again, it was almost comical when I began to listen to my mind from a more just detached, objective space of observation of how much these thoughts are so torturesome if I believe that.

Byron Katie: You can see the world that you’ve graduated out of, that you graduated from and afford to laugh, whereas prior to them they weren’t necessarily so funny.

Marie Forleo: No, not funny at all. Like, not funny at all. And so for anyone listening right now who is like, “Okay, all right ladies, let’s take it back here saying, hold up a minute. Wait, if I stop…”

Byron Katie: Let’s back it up.

Marie Forleo: Let’s back it up. “If I stop arguing with reality, aren’t I going to become passive? Like won’t I lose the desire or the ambition to act?” So Katie, what do you say to someone who might have that concern?

Byron Katie: That the opposite is true because we’re removing the clutter that keeps us from moving fearlessly in our lives. The extreme opposite is true. It’s like, if I’m going to… I’m walking down the street and I see maybe some trash beside the road and it’s on my path and I have the thought, I should put it in the bin. There’s a bin in my site, a trash bin, and I’m walking, I think I should pick that up and everything’s there for me to follow through with it. But then my mind says, “Why? It’s not my trash. It’s not fair. I don’t want to interrupt my steps.” The mind. But if we question those thoughts, there’s nothing in our way from doing the right thing.

So this is about the end of fear that keeps us, the end of the fear that keeps us from doing what we know to do in our hearts. And we don’t lose. There’s a law in this. We always gain. It’s just a law. I love to say, when you think things, life cannot get any better. It has to. That’s the law. It’s just are we noticing or not? What keeps me back, what holds me back from my heart’s desire, the thoughts I’m believing –– thinking and believing –– that talk me out of doing what’s right.

Marie Forleo: Like I could see my own thoughts as you were giving that example, Katie, seeing trash, let’s say on the ground as I’m on a walk or on a run. I could hear my mind instantly spurred up like, “Oh, people shouldn’t litter so much. Right? Who is thinking, why aren’t people taking care of the environment?” Like I could hear really common ideas and they come at us…

Byron Katie: Oh my gosh, yes, yes, yes, and if everybody did that, no wonder the world is such a mess as I walk by the trash or run by the trash.

Marie Forleo: That’s exactly right.

Byron Katie: Yeah. So why do people throw… leave trash on the ground? Well, why do I leave trash on the ground? I’ve got every excuse in the world. That’s why there’s trash on the ground. If each of us were more aware, it’s not just a privilege to in this… in the scenario, it’s not just a privilege to pick up the trash, but it literally is a way of growing us, getting in the pattern of doing what’s right and the end of procrastination.

Marie Forleo: Yes, absolutely.

Byron Katie: Procrastination is just another word for guilt.

Marie Forleo: Yes. Yes. You know, you all often have answered that other question of someone saying, “Well gosh, if I just don’t resist what is, am I going to lose my desire or ambition? I love that you’ve asked, can you really know that that’s true? And also this notion of which is more empowering. I wish I hadn’t lost my job or I lost my job, now what intelligent solutions can I find right now? I think this whole notion that you share about not resisting what is-

Byron Katie: Yeah, I lost my job. What can I do from here? It’s magical.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: Because the only way I could lose my job is there’s a better one in the store. But if my mind’s at war with itself and at war with the world, then I’m depressed. I can’t even get out of bed. I’ve got a decade to prove how powerful these thoughts are and when they’re questioned on how the enlightened mind, the body follows.

Marie Forleo: I think it’s also really important to note that you share, when doing The Work and when investigating whether or not you want to resist reality and the suffering that ensues when you do it doesn’t mean that you condone or approve of certain events. No one wants their children to get sick, as you share, no one wants to be in a car accident, but when these things happen, how can it be helpful to mentally argue with them? Again, I’m just sharing some thoughts that you have in your work. Like we all know better than to do that, but we do it. I think it’s because we don’t know how to stop.

Byron Katie: Yeah, and that was my life. We do it. I had no way out. No one could give me a way out short of drugs that my mind overrode, and the only way out was in, I had to look in myself and identify what I was thinking and believing about the world and you and me and question that. That set me free to make intelligent, wiser choices. It just comes with the turf. That’s the territory we’re entering on the other side of the questioning. What I’m thinking and believing on the path is clear. It’s just we… I just do the right thing and my family certainly appreciates it. The people I work with here at BKI and we all hold an appreciation one to the other and there’d be no war if we all just sit down and look at ourselves and the productivity that we could do and the ways that we could economically make different choices because the money’s freed up. Oh my gosh. It’s just, it’s unlimited.

Marie Forleo: You shared that all suffering begins and ends with you, and I love that. You also wrote, I realized that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered, but then when I didn’t believe them, I didn’t suffer and that this is true for every human being. Freedom is as simple as that. So for those who may be unfamiliar, I’m curious if you can walk us through the four questions and the turnaround that is The Work?

Byron Katie: I’d love to. I love that. And also this is all free on thework.com if I have anything of value, it’s free there. So on Byronkatie.com. So let’s say, what’s a belief we could work with? Like something terrible is going to happen or he doesn’t care about me. What’s a good one?

Marie Forleo: Oh, let’s play with a belief. Let’s say a belief, that’s a good one. You know what? He doesn’t…

Byron Katie: And thoughts for those of you, it doesn’t have… like we have beliefs and we think, “Oh, I don’t believe that.” So it just be a stressful thought.

Marie Forleo: Yes, a stressful thought. Great. Oh, you know what? Here’s like a silly one, because I feel like some of the silliest ones can be some of the most persistent.

Byron Katie: Absolutely.

Marie Forleo: He should put the toilet seat down because I’ve asked him 20 times.

Byron Katie: Okay. Oh, yes, yes, yes. And he still leaves the toilet seat up. Okay. So he should put the toilet seat on. So for your listeners, The Work is meditation. It’s a way of identifying what is causing our stress. In this case we’re working with, he should put the toilet seat down. Okay. So the first question we’re going to meditate in is, is it true? Now visualize a time when you were believing that, a time when you walked into the bathroom and there was…

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: In plain sight and you had the thought he should put the toilet seat down. Now, so everyone meditate there and hold that anchor in the situation. That’s very important. So he should put the toilet seat down. Is it true? Can you really know that it’s true that he and you know who you’re talking about, he should put the toilet seat down. The answer is either yes or no. Just for all of you that are new to The Work, it’s not yes and or no, because you just stay there and until you’re shown and you’ll see it through images and thoughts as you contemplate the question, he should put the toilet seat down. Is it true? Can you really know that it’s true?

Marie Forleo: Thankfully, because I’ve practiced The Work with you, I’m able to get to a no.

Byron Katie: Yes.

Marie Forleo: I’m like, no, but I can tell you, and I just want to share this just very honestly, I can almost hear a different version of my mind, Katie, going but yes. Because I’ve asked for it 50,000 times.

Byron Katie: Exactly. And when we ask is it true, that’s what comes up? I’ve told them a hundred times. Blah blah blah, he just doesn’t get it. And here we go, where in this other world, and we’re literally fixing breakfast or lunch and there, but we are mentally in the freaking bathroom. So it’s like we’re not present in where we are. We’re living in that bathroom and in our mind’s eye. Then he walks in, he says, “Hi honey,” and we give him the look like, “yeah, sure.” Like he doesn’t know he left the toilet seat down again? So you know, all that goes to, when we sit in this, but then I just go, “Yup, hear that, hear that, hear that.” As I’m in the kitchen, at the sink, I’m mentally in the bathroom and I’m doing this work.

He should put the toilet seat down. Is it true? So until I come out with a clear yes or no, I’m going to hear all those things that you just brought up. So you ended up just finding that no and then experiencing it emotionally, you just get it. Yes is equal to no, all of you out there. We’re just looking for your answer. The one shown to you as you seriously and mindfully meditate in that bathroom, as you stand at the sink. Okay. So now the next question, how do you react standing at the sink? How do you react when you believe the thought he should put the toilet seat down? Now you’re at the sink. Look at you walking into the bathroom. In the situation where you had the thought.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: He should put the toilet… now, how do you react? What happens when you believe the thought?

Marie Forleo: I make an angry, scowly face. I definitely pull my energy back. I get bitchy. I feel entitled. I am kind of curt and mean. I might even say something that’s a little hurtful.

Byron Katie: Like, “Again?!”

Marie Forleo: Yes, absolutely. I am certainly… Katie, I am not my highest self when I am believing that thought. The way I react is definitely, it’s kind of like having a little tantrum, it’s having like a childish tantrum. That’s how I’d describe it.

Byron Katie: Okay. Now let’s feel the emotions you feel. Just take time out for that. Feel what that feels like what you described.

Marie Forleo: Frustration. It feels probably little twinges of anger. I could feel a sense of feeling misunderstood or not respected.

Byron Katie: Now get in touch with your body language. Witness that.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: It’s really important we see that and we witness it and the next time, sometimes that’s the clue that we’re caught in the dream again.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: It’s in those emotions, they’re there to remind us that we’re thinking out of…  we’re no longer in touch with reality, we’re in the dream. And then notice how you treat him when you think the thought and notice how you look at him and the words that come out and your attitude and just sitting there in the silence, notice what arises and then describe it.

Marie Forleo: So from my body posture, it is closed off. I would say that there is a coldness, like I can turn on the ice queen in a moment. I would say the words that come out of my mouth, they are unkind. There is a sense of anger and frustration of pulling back love, of holding back my heart just to, again, definitely not my best self, Katie.

Byron Katie: Yeah, and we returned into like these grit, stern teachers and they’re the inferior and we’re the superior and definitely making sure that they know there was something wrong with them.

Marie Forleo: That’s right. That’s right.

Byron Katie: I’m right. He’s wrong.

Marie Forleo: A superiority, like a punishing kind of nature and yeah, yeah absolutely.

Byron Katie: And so then we feel that and then notice, and this really takes some presence, but notice as you’re thinking that and feeling that and acting that out. Notice any images you see of the past where he has done that before.

Marie Forleo: Yes. It’s almost as if there’s like a stacking, right? A picture stacking…

Byron Katie: Yes, yes. Exactly.

Marie Forleo: …of all of the times. Yes, yes, yes.

Byron Katie: Exactly. Now look at the images as you are in that. Look at the images that were going on in your mind’s eye of the future where he’s going to do it again and again and again.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: And in these…

Marie Forleo: The toilet seat up for infinity.

Byron Katie: Yeah. So here is something to notice. Is that what you’re… is the toilet seat being up, is that what’s bothering you or what you were thinking and believing as you witnessed the toilet seat?

Marie Forleo: It’s the latter.

Byron Katie: Okay.

Marie Forleo: It’s the latter.

Byron Katie: Okay. So I love that really because we can, reality will never upset us. What we are thinking and believing about reality –– those images of past, future as we witness the present moment now –– that is the dream world and that is what’s upsetting us. It’s like having anything from a minor nightmare to a major one.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: And it can be like the princess and the pea. It can be the slightest little bruise, or it can be like a major meltdown. People they divorce over these things. They murder over these things. They think… they fight in front of their children over these things or argue. We’re teaching how to… we’re teaching the people around us how to live by example.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: Our mind would say, “by example, my children should understand that the toilet seat should be down.” That’s out of context, but it’s just bad example of what we’re… because we hide so much from our children of our disapproval of others. Okay, so now the last question, there are only four. Last question. Be there now, look at the toilet seat. Who would you be without the thought he should put the toilet seat down?

Marie Forleo: Oh, like joyous and loving and absolutely undisturbed at all with the state of a toilet seat.

Byron Katie: So it’s not even personal.

Marie Forleo: Yeah.

Byron Katie: It just is what it is.

Marie Forleo: It just is what it is.

Byron Katie: To imagine that that could upset a human being out of the enlightened mind that you’re seeing it now, is radically different. Now he should put the toilet seat down. I love this work. It’s so user-friendly because it doesn’t just leave us out there and the others. Can you find an opposite?

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: Or a turn around to he should put the toilet seat down?

Marie Forleo: Yes. One opposite is he shouldn’t put the toilet seat down.

Byron Katie: Okay, so that is catching up to reality.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: I know he shouldn’t, he didn’t…

Marie Forleo: That’s right.

Byron Katie: He didn’t. He didn’t have a problem with it. I’m the one with the problem. There’s something…

Marie Forleo: That’s right.

Byron Katie: …there’s something of here. He used to leave. That’s easy. And he’s in there singing and whistling and I am… Okay. So can you find another one? He should put the toilet…

Marie Forleo: I should put the toilet seat down.

Byron Katie: Okay. So now just in your mind’s eye, just walk up, do it in your mind’s eye and just be present. Is it without what you’re thinking and believing, isn’t it fair you’re the one with the problem?

Marie Forleo: Yes. If I’m the one that wants it down, I should…

Byron Katie: Yeah. Because this is self-care.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: Then when he walks in, you’re at the sink you can say, “You know honey, you left the toilet seat up again and I just had just the most amazing time just blaming you in my mind’s eye and then just taking care of it. I’d appreciate if you put the toilet seat down.” And then he will or he won’t. But there’s no war.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: In our home.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: Where do we do our best work when we are in that state of connection or blame, blaming, it’s just…

Marie Forleo: Connection all the way. And you know I just…

Byron Katie: All the way.

Marie Forleo: …I want to share here. I know created that silly example. But I feel…

Byron Katie: It’s not so silly though. Is it?

Marie Forleo: No, because I feel like so much of our lives, Katie, at least again, when I…

Byron Katie: They build on trivials like this, so it’s not so trivial when we are in it.

Marie Forleo: Yes. That’s right. That’s absolutely right. And again, I just want to reiterate, so we went through, we skipped question two because…

Byron Katie: I combined it. Is it true? Can you really know that it’s true?

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: That second one is, can you absolutely know that it’s true, that he should put the toilet seat down? I kind of combined them in the interest of… When I first started sharing The Work with people, there were only three questions and I thought, I’ll split it to give them a double shot at the first one.

Marie Forleo: I love it. I didn’t know that. That’s really cool.

Byron Katie: Yeah. So is it true? Can you really know that it’s true? Yeah.

Marie Forleo: I also wanted to just make a note here for anyone listening. Again, I know the somewhat trivial example that we just went through, but if you’re unfamiliar with Katie’s work, she’s done it on so many situations with so many beautiful souls throughout our world, including folks who have done The Work on rape, folks who’ve done The Work on war, on torture, on prolonged illness, and even the death of a child. So I say that, not to go into this dark place, but to simply share how incredibly profound this process is that we can use it everywhere.

Byron Katie: Truly, truly, truly it is. There is no dark place that we have experienced or fear to experience that we cannot meet with understanding. If we simply understood how to identify what’s frightening us and to question it. But it is, it does take a meditative, it does take… You know, why ask these questions if we don’t really want to know the truth? Because the truth is the way out. What I love about this is it’s where we’re looking at our own truth, not the world’s.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: But really it’s a showdown with the self. Don’t you just really want to know the cause of suffering? If I think it’s my husband then I’m looking out and I need to look in because what I am thinking and believing about that situation that has, I am the one creating the problem. It’s… what I’m thinking Marie is, it’s a toilet seat for heaven sakes, but we can only afford to say that after we worked on it.

Marie Forleo: Yeah. Yeah.

Byron Katie: So who’d think a toilet seat would be there for our spiritual, for our own good. If someone…

Marie Forleo: Who would think, right, that the toilet seat is our spiritual teacher, but it actually is.

Byron Katie: Yes. Anything that causes us or throws us into a state like that takes us back to ourselves. So we’re grateful for… you could walk in and see a toilet seat like that and laugh and laugh and laugh and not even remember that it happened or you put it down or anything. So you cease to even like taking credit for putting that down. You stop understanding what people are talking about because it’s just such a common way where you would just pick up the trash. We just do the dishes, we put down the toilet seat and then that’s what people learn from us because we are living a living example of how we want the world to be and because we have the world is we want it to be. It’s responsible…

Marie Forleo: It’s really responsible.

Byron Katie: …to question what we believe, that would harm ourselves or another human being in any way.

Marie Forleo: I’ve used it so many times to catch myself. It was interesting after doing the New Year’s cleanse, I just had such a great time, Katie, catching myself actually standing at the kitchen sink and about to hear the words come out of my mouth to direct Josh to do something or to try and arrange the world how I believe that it should be arranged because of course I’m right in my mind and I literally heard myself go, “Marie, if you’d like those dishes dried, then do them.” I did them. I was like, “Wow! This is just delightful and fun and so much more pleasant, like at such a more gentle and loving way to go through life. I had to share that with you because I keep catching myself and it’s great.

Byron Katie: Isn’t it time saving?

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: Oh my goodness. The dishes are done. Have you ever wondered who did them because your mind is so pleasant to be with that it really becomes like a timeless world.

Marie Forleo: You know, you’ve shared something. I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit more about it. I wrote this down, from the New Year’s cleanse. It was that there are no new stressful thoughts. They’re all recycled.

Byron Katie: Mmhmm. For example, he should put down the toilet seat, he should put the toilet seat down. How many of us have had thought? Even men have the thought, “oh darn, I should have put down the toilet seat.” There’s nothing new there. “They don’t like me, they think I’m stupid.” There’s nothing new there. Or “people shouldn’t throw trash on the highway.” There’s nothing new there. “There’s something the matter with him or her.” That’s not a new thought. We still believe in them. It’s like that game post office where you are gossip where you say something and when you get to the end of the line it’s completely different.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: This just is, it’s just post office from the beginning of when we first believed.

Marie Forleo: Yes.

Byron Katie: That’s where it starts. When I believe, then I entered the world of suffering and by questioning my thoughts and like you were leaving the world of suffering. We’re leaving that world where so many things were wrong and we are entering the world where so many things are right. It becomes like we become in this rather than this world of duality, we’re in a world where there is no duality. Everything is as it should be. Not because we say so, but because we can clearly see it. It’s an experience and then when we don’t see it, we can question what we’re believing about it and just go along with our lives and just support responsibly on living in a world that’s worthwhile.

Marie Forleo: One of the most powerful things I did recently was actually a Judge Your Neighbor Worksheet. My mom, who’s incredible, who God bless her is still alive. There was a point, it was probably about six or seven months ago where we just had one of those rumbles, like we got into one of these things and I was like…

Byron Katie: Good one.

Marie Forleo: “This feels familiar.” I did a whole Judge Your Neighbor Worksheet and it was so powerful, by the way, for anyone listening who are like, “What is she talking about?” A Judge Your Neighbor Worksheet, go to Katie’s website, go to thework.com, you will see everything there and it’s very clearly explained. But what I wanted to tell you was it was so incredibly miraculous about how clear I was about how right I felt that she was wrong. The simple practice of doing this work, I have to tell you, it was a pattern that I’ve seen in our relationship since I was a little girl. Doing this Judge Your Neighbor Worksheet, I was able to see how clearly like especially the turnarounds, I was like, “Oh my goodness.” The outcome of that, of me being able to actually reach out and connect with my mom from a pure place of love and just connection and embracing exactly who she is and who she was in that moment. I will tell you, it took us from having some tension for a little bit to right back in relationship.

Byron Katie: Yeah. It is… If I see something on the border in the world, I need to look to me to straighten my own world out and I know that Judge Your Neighbor Worksheet Marie, it is… God, I love that you have that in your life. I wish everyone did. It is the way to peace. It is the way to connection. Until I became responsible for what I was thinking and believing, I would not have been able to hear it on the words that you and I… the dimension you and I are talking on out of. It’s the opposite of war. It’s a whole new way of life and it’s fun and funny and it’s an… that’s where we are the best learners.

Marie Forleo: Yes. That place of curiosity, I want to mention something else that you share as really profound. You share that there are only three kinds of business in the universe. Do you want to tell us about the three kinds of business?

Byron Katie: Okay. The three kinds of business, and I could only find three. My business, your business, and God’s business. For some of you, you wouldn’t use the word God, but maybe nature or whatever it is for you. But my business, your business, God’s business. So, when I am, let’s say I’m in California and my daughter is in Texas and with my grandchildren, and I’m sitting here with you Marie, and I am at the same time in Texas in my mind’s eye running my daughter’s life and my grandchildren’s life. I’m there as I’m talking to you or I’m just sitting here alone and I’m running her life.

Well, there’s no one here for me. She’s over there. I’m mentally over there and there’s no one here being present with me. So anytime you, listeners, anytime you feel like you’re alone or a little confused, just ask yourself mentally whose business are you in, and allow that to bring you back to the present. Because right here, right now is where change takes place. It’s not in the past or future. It is right here, right now where we can make a difference and I can pick up the phone and call her or I can just laugh and notice, oh my gosh, the bath waters have almost running over the top.

Marie Forleo: I love it though because I’ve also used this one on myself because I will say that my mind loves to be the manager of the universe. Loves to think that I have all of the best ideas and all of the best advice of what everyone else should be doing. Every time I remember the only three kinds of business in the universe and I check myself, I’m like, “Oh, I just need to stay in my own business right now.” You know what’s so cool about it, Katie? It makes my life so much simpler. I have so much more time.

Byron Katie: Oh, my gosh. Yes.

Marie Forleo: I have so much more energy. I don’t have to run everything.

Byron Katie: Isn’t that true? Oh my gosh. The only thing we need to run as right here, right now, anyway, and we can run the world from the computer because we’re present and our life is fulfilled. Whether people read what we write or hear what we say, ours is complete.

Marie Forleo: It really is. It’s lovely. I love that you share the next time you’re feeling stress or discomfort, ask yourself who’s business you’re in mentally and you may burst out laughing.

Byron Katie: Running the world again.

Marie Forleo: Yes. So I’ll just share a few more quotes that I wrote down that I love of yours before we wrap up today. One is that you share that you have the key to your own happiness, but the last place we look as ourselves, whatever we want, whatever we think another person needs to do, we need to do. I feel like this is kind of the heart of the turnaround question, right?

Byron Katie: Mmhmm.

Marie Forleo: Whenever our lovely mind is demanding that someone behave a certain way or do something for us, the genius of it is, what if I turned that around?

Byron Katie: Yeah, yeah. It would be like, “You left the door open.” Saying like, let’s say Steven left the door open. You left the door open. Well, turn it around. I left the door open and when I feel the emotions it takes, you should… it implies he did it wrong, but I could just walk over and close the door and it doesn’t stop me from saying, “Honey, did you leave the door open?” Because for all I know he didn’t do it.

Marie Forleo: Yes, yes.

Byron Katie: Yeah. But there’s something wrong with him. Turned around this, there’s something wrong with me. Then to ponder that, it doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s just something to ponder. That’s what these turnarounds are. They’re not exchanging a negative belief for a positive. They’re there to ponder, to meditate in and like there’s something wrong with him. Turn it around. There’s something wrong with me in this moment. I was judging, I haven’t… there’s turned around, there’s something right with him. Then to notice in the moment on there’s a whole world out there to be seen. When I look at my past behavior, I could see why people would avoid me. Why they wouldn’t on and on and on and on and on, and of course, I’m going back a lot of years, to see that. But my behavior was the teacher that brought me to this moment where life is really good and I appreciate it all.

Marie Forleo: Yeah. Yeah. Something else that you shared too. You said, “If you want world peace, bring peace to your world. Not mine, yours. We all live in our own world.” And that to me was one of those especially like mind-blowing moments because I think so many beautiful, honest loving people want to do good for the world and envision a world where it is more peaceful. I loved when you shared that because once again, it’s like, “Oh, this is my business.” Right? I need to do my business if that’s the experience of the world that I want.

Byron Katie: Yes. You know, I spoke with a person earlier today that billions of dollars. It’s like a genius and he has a lot of people that are pretty close to that, and all in that area and they want to save the world. But we have to save our own world first. But while we’re in that process, while we’re in that, in the way that you and I have been discussing here, but that doesn’t mean we’re going to stop trying to fix the world. We’re in some dire times, from what people are seeing, there’s a lot of fear here, but how much of that fear am I interjecting into that and my mind, where am I contributing to that kind of fear? Fear slows us up. Peace is where we do our best thinking and in our best action, but how can the unenlightened mind, a fearful mind, in other words, give it its best shot?

Marie Forleo: Right.

Byron Katie: A fearful mind will… Just kind of stumbling words now, but you first take care of your life first, what you’re thinking and believing, and then you make wiser choices as you get to know us. And I live in a world that is the extreme opposite of where I began when inquiry found me. And I was agoraphobic, weeks or months of being unable to even leave my bedroom. It was horrible and I just wouldn’t want anyone to have to suffer a moment of that and even physical pain is either remembered or anticipated, but you know, these are lofty words, but they’re understandings that are true and valued and become deeper and deeper.

Like you, we’re on a path that we’re responsible for and you know what kind of grace is that. But save yourself and the world follows. It just works that way because it’s your world. Your world is the one that matters and I’m speaking… I’m saying that for all of us.

Marie Forleo: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to thank you so much for The Work, which is brilliant and genius and brings each of us back to ourselves and back to the truth and back to freedom. I also just want to thank you for taking the time to be with us today. You are such a joy and you’re such a pleasure. So, Katie, thank you enormously. Once again, for everyone listening to learn more about this incredible work, you can go to Katie’s website, you can go to thework.com and we’ll leave this in the show notes and of course we’ll leave a link on the blog and in the email too. So, Katie, is there anything that you want to leave folks with today?

Byron Katie: Oh that, that if I can do it, anyone can do it and I’m just so… and Marie you are a power source, sweetheart. I’m so grateful you are on the planet.

Marie Forleo: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Sending you so much love and good luck with all the traveling and the teaching you have coming up. I can’t wait to see you at another workshop soon. Thank you so much.

Byron Katie: You are welcome. Bye-bye.

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