Depression, Sadness & Grief: How To Transform it From A Spiritual Perspective

Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business and life you love. If you or anyone you know has ever struggled with sadness or loss or depression, my guest today is here to share an enlightening perspective on its deeper meaning in our lives.

Marianne Williamson is an internationally acclaimed spiritual author and lecturer. Marianne has been a popular guest on shows like Oprah, Larry King Live, Good Morning America, Charlie Rose, and Bill Maher. Six of her eleven published books have been New York Times Bestsellers. The mega-bestseller, A Return to Love, is considered a must read. Marianne’s other books include The Law of Divine Compensation, The Age of Miracles, Everyday Grace, A Woman’s Worth, Illuminata, Healing the Soul of America, A Course in Weight Loss, The Gift of Change, and A Year of Miracles. Her newest book, Tears to Triumph: The Spiritual Journey from Suffering to Enlightenment, is available now.

Marianne is a native of Houston, Texas and is the founder of Project Angel Food, a meals on wheels program that serves homebound people with AIDS in the Los Angeles area. To date, Project Angel Food has served over 10 million meals. Marianne also co-founded The Peace Alliance and serves on the board of The Results Organization, working to end the worst ravages of hunger and poverty throughout the world.

Marianne, thank you so much for making time to be here.

Thank you for having me.

I want to acknowledge, once again, I know you’ve been on the show before and we only did audio because we had some challenges with the video. But thank you for the work that you do in the world.

Right back at you.

I’ve told you this…

Thank you.

...it just… it always makes such a difference to me and I’m always so excited when you have a new book coming out, which today…

It’s an honor when you say that. Thank you.

Tears to Triumph. Read the full thing. It is extraordinary.

Thank you.

You’ve been counseling people for over 30 years…

Yes.

...in some very serious situations.

Indeed.

You’ve also had dark nights of the soul yourself. Tell us about what inspired you to write this book now.

Well, actually, why I decided to write the book, I ran for Congress a couple of years ago. And after the election, a few days afterwards, I was being interviewed by Maria Shriver and she asked me if I was sad. And I said, “No, I’m not sad.” She said, “Really? You’re not sad at all?” I said, “No, you know, somebody… you don't go into a political election knowing you’re going to win. Somebody’s going to win, somebody’s going to lose. So I’m not sad, I’m… whatever.” She said, “Really? You’re not just a little bit sad?” She said, “I had a cousin who ran for Congress and lost and it was just devastating for him for a long time.” And I just… “No, it’s not sad.” And then about 2 or 3 days later I think, I was actually sitting in my apartment and it was like a black wave, huge wave, was coming at me like a tsunami. And I knew it. There was no mistaking it. And I had been through it once, very, very terrible time in my life, a tragic time in my life decades before. But also, we all go through our dark nights of the soul. And I think also, suffering gives you x-ray vision into other people’s sufferings. So, for instance, like when you were talking about my work. My career began right smack dab in the middle of the AIDS crisis. And so from the very beginning of my work, applying these principles in the lives of people in often catastrophic situations has been core to my experience. Now, what I have seen though in the last few years, what we’ve all seen, is that it’s almost like we’ve begun to make being deeply sad wrong. Something has happened in our society where what I think of as a normal spectrum of human suffering, if you take a risk and really put yourself into it and many people back you and support you and then you fall flat on your face, of course you're going to be depressed about this for a while. If you are diagnosed with a serious disease, of course you’re going to be depressed about this for a while. If you go through a painful divorce, of course you’re going to be in pain for a while. But those pains are not a mental illness. And what I’ve seen in the last few years is so many people who are on antidepressants, who are on pharmaceuticals when if you ask them why, describe situations that are depressing but in a way that is part of life. And this is particularly disturbing and I think all of us should be very aware of this. The FDA itself has warned, and does warn, for people 25 and younger, antidepressants can increase, not decrease, the suicide risk. We have huge increase in suicides, we also have huge increase in antidepressant use. So I don't see the causal relationship. I’m not saying there’s a causal relationship between taking them and committing suicide, but neither am I saying that we’ve proven that there’s a causal relationship between taking them and not. So I think there’s been a pathologizing of normal human suffering that is very unhealthy in my experience and in the experience of many people that I’ve worked with and spoken to. A dark night of the soul is some of the most transformative times that we go through in our lives. They are sacred initiations. You learn things. That’s what’s so painful. What’s so painful is you have to look at things that are so painful to look at. You have to look at your failure, you have to look at your part in your own disasters. You have to look at your own mortality, you have to grieve the loss of a loved one or the loss of a marriage or a love affair. But I think that the psyche has an immune system just like the body does. If you’re in a car accident, you go through something and it’s understood it’s gonna take a while to heal. Your body is bruised. And we often feel, everybody knows this, you know, you go through a rough time and you feel like you’re bruised emotionally because you are. But humanity would not have evolved over the last however many thousands, hundreds of thousands of years were we not imbued with the capacity to take a hit. And that’s true not only physically, but also emotionally and psychologically. Catastrophes didn't just start happening. Heartbreak didn't just start happening. Grief didn't just start happening. And in our really arrogance, the modern mind has decided that it can do better than certain natural systems. And we know with our bodies to work with your immune system, and yet with a lot of the over medication that’s applied in America today, we’re trying to sort of override the immune system. And the psychic immune system, much like the physical immune system, involves taking time. You’re gonna be sad for a while. You’re gonna be depressed for a while. A lot of people say, “Oh, no, you know, Williamson, you know, don't tread there. This is a physical disease. We see there’s a chemical imbalance in depression.” But I ask you, do you know anyone who has been clinically diagnosed as depressed that they gave a blood test to or some kind of brain test to see all this chemical change in their brain? No. Clinical… the diagnosis of clinical depression is a questionnaire. And when you look at that questionnaire, I don't know anybody who can’t look at some of those and go, “Yes, I’ve been there.”

Yes.

So I think that it’s extremely important that we not stay to a corner of thinking. Look, I have as much respect for biomedical research as anyone does. I’m not saying… and I’m not saying that there’s no place for psychotherapeutic drugs, bipolar situations, schizophrenia, and so forth, but not within the spectrum of normal human suffering that we’ve begun to pathologize in this country. And so I think that if I’m talking to a therapist or a doctor who does not factor the soul into their calculation and I think that it’s a soul disease, it’s a spiritual disease, who… they’re saying what am I to tread on medical ground? I’m challenging the assertion that this is medical ground and who are you to tread on spiritual ground? This is an ancient malady called the dark night of the soul. And if you look, the three spiritual traditions that I looked at in the book: Buddha, the story of Moses and the exodus, and Jesus. They, like all great religious and spiritual systems, have the issue of human suffering at their core. Buddha said life is suffering. That’s the essence of suffering. He says that is what I teach, that life is suffering, and I teach the cessation of suffering through the realization, he said, that the things of this world can only bring temporary happiness. Well, you and I live in a culture that says if we’re unhappy, we need to get this or get that or get that or get that. Buddha says the very fact you think you need this to make you happy is your setup for despair. And then in the story of the exodus, the whole point is that God sent Moses to deliver the Israelites from their suffering as slaves, and the suffering of the Israelites in their journey to the promised land. And then, of course, the suffering of Jesus on the cross. So it’s not like the spiritual traditions don't have anything to add. And so I wanted to write a book where people might feel, hopefully will feel, some guidance and some illumination as to how to navigate these times, not to run away from these times. You know, somebody was telling me the other day that buffalos when they see a storm coming, they don't turn around. They run right into it. That they know that that’s… and I heard that before I wrote the book or I would’ve put it in. That they know that the best way to get through it is to go right into it. And I think there are certain times in life, and I felt that with this last one in my life. This is coming. This is… this is… this couldn’t be avoided no matter what. You’re gonna have to look at this, you’re gonna have to do some deep forgiveness of yourself and others and taking responsibility in all those things or else you will come out of this more, do they say, bitter rather than better.

Yeah.

You know, cramped rather than expanded. And I think when you’re younger, one of the things that’s so disturbing to me about this with young people is not only the physical aspect, which is that 25 and younger antidepressants increase, can increase the risk of suicide, the FDA has said this. It’s written in a little black box, but nobody talks about it. But I think the 20s are hard.

Yes.

I mean, it’s just… it’s hard. So in young people being depressed is like, yeah, honey, this is called becoming who you are. And then in older people you’re depressed because of who you’ve become. So, you know, on both sides it’s like the dark days are part of the natural order and transformative process I think.

So I can even hear someone in the audience saying, “Oh, Marianne, this sounds amazing but I actually am on antidepressants right now.” What would you say to them?

Oh, thank you for mentioning that because I think it’s so important. I am not a medical doctor and I would never suggest with any pharmaceutical that you just go throw it in the wastebasket. My whole point is we should be far more sober about how we get on them and we should certainly be sober about how we get off. So if anybody is feeling with this conversation that is articulated not just by me but by others as well, and do feel that they would like to move away from pharmaceutical treatment of their depression, obviously you should only do this under the supervision of a doctor who tells you how best to do that.

So according to many experts, you know, clinical depression is being alarmingly overdiagnosed and overtreated. Why do you think that our suffering has become such a profit center?

Surely you don't really… you’re not really without the answer. Any of us who think about this are with the answer. It’s what I call the psychotherapeutic pharmacological industrial complex.

Yes.

We’re talking about billions of dollars here. Another one that you hear a lot is a lot of young women, girls even, who are not even in their… not even sexually active yet taking birth control pills to, quote on quote, regulate their hormones. What is this regulate your hormones? Nature has been regulating our hormones for hundreds of thousands of years.

Yeah.

What is going on here? Another thing I find interesting in terms of our community, Marie, is there’s so many people who don't want to touch gluten, don't wanna put… ooh, I wouldn’t want those chemicals in my gut, who don't seem to transfer that into chemicals in your brain so casually.

Yeah.

What is that about?

And you have something else in the book that is really interesting and I… you say the place… “That which is placed on the altar is altered.”

Yeah.

“And a prayer for a miracle is not a request that the situation be different, but a request that we see it differently.”

Right.

And then I love that you also juxtaposed that with, you know, for someone who is in deep pain right now, because there will be people watching who are very hopeful and you say, you know, when your spouse has left you after 25 years, where's the miracle in that? When your child has died from a drug overdose, where’s the miracle of that?

Right.

What is your response, this idea that what you place on the altar will be altered? And when they’re feeling that deep…?

First of all, I think we need to recognize that if someone you love has died or a painful divorce or anything along that line, of course you’re sad. You’re sad because you’re human. So the goal shouldn’t be to just flatline our emotions. That’s the first thing. To know… I know when I was young, grief was more permitted. There was more emotional permission for grief. People would wear… immediate family members would wear black for a year… now, you know, we all wear black all time, but this was before. And even Jews still, you take a piece of black material, cloth, and you wear it. And in [inaudible], the Jewish book of wisdom, it actually talks about how during the first year after the death of an immediate family member, the widow or widower or parent or child is allowed to leave the meal during… leave the dinner during the meal. In other words, there were societal prescriptions, which is extremely important because if you allow your grief, then when it ends it ends. And if you don't allow it or you suppress it, it’s gonna bite you. So that’s the first thing, to know that this is a painful time but it will pass. That’s but it will pass. And that’s where the religion comes in or when I say religion I’m not talking about exoteric dogma, doctrine, institution, organized. I’m talking about the genuine religious experience. And that is where you’re talking about putting something on the altar. The altar is in the mind. When you put something on the altar you’re saying, “I am willing for this situation to be reinterpreted,” by the Holy Spirit or whatever name you give to those… that internal guidance system, which is not of this world. So, once again, spiritual disease, spiritual solution. Spiritual solution means coming not from an external source but from an internal source. And from an internal source that is beyond your own. So someone has died. It’s the difference between I am grieving, life is over, I will never see them again, physical death is the end, which is a torment that never ends, versus this being with them in physical incarnation is over, that my grief is understandable. This is not a sign of a lack of mental health, it’s a sign of love. That the book of life never ends. A chapter has ended. Physical death is not the ending but a continuation. I will see them again. I have more to do while I’m here. They’re still here. Death does not exist. What God created cannot be uncreated. They’re still broadcasting, my set just doesn't pick that up. I still grieve during the season of my grief, but with a peace, not barbed wire, around my heart. Same with a divorce. A Course in Miracles says relationships never end, they’re of the mind. The form of the relationship has ended. Physical proximity is no longer the container, but the relationship ends. Also, if I remain bitter, I will not be able to move on with my life. If I have anger I will not be able to move on in my life. If I do not forgive myself and that other person, I will not be able to move on in my life. So during my tears, during my grief, while I get rid of this heartache, I have work to do, which is to look deeply at my own part in this, own it, apologize where I need to apologize, make amends, and make changes within yourself. Otherwise you will just re-enact the situation. So these are things you put on the altar. I put on the altar my anger. I put on the altar my sense that I’m a victim here. I put on my altar my belief that death is the end. I put on the altar my attack thoughts. I put on the altar my resentment. I put on the altar my sense of failure. I put on the altar my sense that nothing will never be good again, I will never be loved again, I will never have a great job again, I will never have a chance. I put on the altar the idea that I’m too old, that I’m done with, or whatever.

Yeah.

And so that’s what I mean by these periods being sacred times where deep work is being done. And sometimes on one hand,  you know, those sleepless nights, some of the things you can more easily shoo away during the day, those demons you can distract yourself from, they’re there at night. They come out of their caves at night and, yes, it’s painful and, yes, you don't sleep. But that’s part of the process because they must be stared down. They must be transformed or else they’ll just go underground and they will find subconscious ways to punish you. But if you recognize what they come… you know, psychic pain brings a message just like physical pain does. And you have to heed that physical pain. If you have a broken leg you don't just take morphine, you have to reset the leg. And if you have psychic pain we have to reset our thinking in order to reset our emotions. Then you can move forward from a better place, as a better person, a person ennobled by the experience, with a heart more open. And also another blessing that can come, I was talking before about how you have x-ray vision into the suffering of others. You have more mercy and more sensitivity towards the pain of others. One of the negative consequences about not experiencing fully our pain, being sensitive enough to our own pain, is that it makes us less sensitive to the pain of others and that is never a good thing. And also I think when you win your depression, your pain, is that you feel you messed up in life, sometimes that’s when you really do come to understand the word mercy. Because the universe is gonna give you another chance. The universe is like a GPS. Took a wrong turn, it’s just gonna recalibrate. And I think that when you have felt God’s mercy on you, you learn to be more merciful towards others. Sometimes I’ll be about to judge somebody and then I’ll remind myself I’ve done so much worse, so just stop right there.

So I have a question that I think many folks in our audience can identify with. I know I certainly have experienced this at times, where on the surface life actually looks pretty good and no tragic loss has actually occurred. No divorce, no disease, yet we can feel like a cloud has come over us and we feel depressed and I know for conversations I’ve had personally it’s like wait, I shouldn't be depressed. I should be so grateful. We’re aware of the suffering in other parts of this country and the world, people that have it so much worse off than us. How can I feel so dark and depressed right now? I’m curious what you would say.

Well, look at what you just said. I have everything. I mean, I know other people are suffering, but I should be happy. No, you shouldn’t be happy if other people are suffering. That’s kind of the point. You know, the whole notion in Buddhism is praying for happiness for all sentient beings. That’s kind of the point today that, you know, if somebody has their head chopped off in Iraq but it’s on your computer, you could be in Idaho. You’re gonna be depressed that day. While you and I are talking, a plane crashed yesterday, they think it was terrorism. To really own what has happened, what that invasion of Iraq set off. If you’re looking at the world today and you’re not grieving, I don't think you’re looking. And the fact that so many people seem to be looking at the world today and not grieving is not a sign of mental health. The fact that you have yours, you know, it’s like Buddha said. Material things can bring only temporary happiness at best. So the fact sometimes that we’re sad is a sign that we’re sensitive human beings. Paul Hawken has that expression blessed unrest. Look at the state of the planet that if we don't turn this thing around the whole ecosystem could implode within 20 years. All the… all the nuclear bombs that we not only have but keep building. The terrible problem we have with terrorism and ISIL and anybody who looks at it from a rational perspective knows there’s no easy answer here. The terrible inequities in the world? And that contrasted with the fact that it could all be so beautiful. That’s tragic, that’s poignant. The fact that you feel that doesn't mean something’s wrong with you. You know, I tell a story in the book about a troop of chimpanzees in Africa and how some anthropologists found that there was a small core part of the population of chimpanzees in this chimp village called a troop that seemed to display depressed behavior. They didn't eat with the rest of the chimps, they didn't play with the rest of the chimps, they didn't sleep with the rest of the chimps. So these anthropologists thought that was very interesting because it seemed to mirror the human population. So what they did was they took the so called depressed chimps away for 6 months and then they came back to the chimpanzee village, the troop, to see what the effect was of taking all those chimps away, the depressed chimps. You know, and I’ve asked audiences all over, what do you think they found? Now, you’ve read the book so you know what they found. But most people say, the answer I usually hear, is, “Well, more of the chimp troop, more had become depressed.” What they found was that the whole chimpanzee troop was dead. And what they concluded from that was that the quote on quote depressed chimps were their early warning system. They were the chimps who could discern that snakes were coming or elephants were coming or stormclouds were coming or earthquakes were coming or tornadoes were coming. And so the rest of the chimps saw, oh, they’re depressed. We’d better take cover or whatever. So what we have in the society today, the fact that people are depressed means something is wrong, something is off. And so it’s like we’re the canaries in the gold mine… in the coal mine, but what the system is saying is that there’s something wrong with the canaries. There’s nothing wrong with the canaries. And our suffering should be more than just, you know, a profit center for gold manufacturers. So… for drug manufacturers. So I think that it’s very important that we look at our modern civilization and realize how the very organizing principles that dominate life in the modern world repudiate our spiritual nature. Those principles posit us as separate rather than one. They posit short term economic gain as more important than the building of community, than the fostering of real care for each other, for our children. They make everything external seem more important than that which is internal. They have us like hamsters on a wheel always going after those things saying that those things will bring us happiness, and the fact that they don't bring us happiness just means that they can't fundamentally and permanently. So for us to recognize what is deeply wrong both in our own individual lives and in the whole world then awakens us to what we need to do to change it

Let’s talk about the wisest question we can ask when we are deeply sad. You said how can I…? It’s not how can I end or numb this pain immediately? What is the meaning of this pain? What does this pain reveal to me? What is it calling to me to understand? I loved this because it gives us a tool to start to, I think, reset our thinking.

Someone… I’ve lost a sister, I’ve lost both parents, I’ve lost my best friend. I learned that life is short. I learned don't waste time on unimportant things. I remember at my sister’s deathbed I was sitting there, she had a couple of days to live, she was sitting up. My brother was at the end of the bed, I was sitting there, and I was overcome with this realization that we sort of forgot to do the sibling thing. We didn't… like, we had intimated a brother and brother and 2 sisters. Now, if I called my sister a year before, 2 years before, 3 years before and said, “Why don't you and Peter and I have dinner?” she would’ve said, “Why? I have children, Marianne, I don't have time to just go out to dinner with you guys,” because we were all busy. And I just got it. I got this… there was something that we forgot to experience fully. I said when my sister died that my grief wasn’t that I didn't know her longer, it was that I didn't know her better. Yes, she died young, but that mentality I don't think I would’ve known her any better. And it… in my life it took the loss of a best friend, it took the loss of a sister to feel more deeply. This thing is… don't waste time. Don't waste time in loving people. And also my parents, and this happens for most of us as we get older, it’s very transformative that, you know, you’re… there’s a way you’re not on center stage as long as even one parent is alive. At the end of relationships, heartache at the end of relationship. I’ve never been in one and I’ve never seen one where it was all one person’s issue. Where do you become wiser? What was my part? Where did I not give? You know, we live in a society today where people are always saying to you about relationships, “Are you getting what you need?” Rather than, rather than, “Are you giving all you have?” So we are sometimes in the guise of people with the best of intentions and even your support and your counselor, could you be a little more narcissistic here? Or could you be a little more self centered here? Could you make it any more about you here? But really, really focus on how other people are doing it wrong and, you know, their issues and why did you attract someone like that as opposed to their therapist is probably asking them why they attracted you. So those things are wisdom and they… they come from experience and sometimes from very painful experiences. And then you’re better and then you’re different. And then you’re ready to move forward in life not reenacting the same old same old, having a more expanded life because your heart and mind have been expanded.

What are the spiritual principles that deliver us from our pain and how can we apply them?

First of all, the realization that love is real and nothing else exists. That love is all that matters. That if… that forgiveness is the key to happiness and if you don't forgive… love works miracles. Love is who you are. You can’t be comfortable in your skin when you’re not standing in the space of who you are. Who you are is love. If I’m withholding love, if I’m not rising to the occasion, if I’m not practicing mercy, compassion, and forgiveness, I can’t be happy. And so when you said some people say I should be happy, you know, you could live in a palace but if you’re attacking other people, holding onto resentments and grievances, if you’re living in the past or the future rather than being present, you can’t be happy. That’s the joke of our society is telling you that you should be and then you feel something’s wrong with you if you’re not and you’re told you have a disorder. That’s the big thing now, everybody has a disorder, a depressive disorder, an anxiety disorder. And I’m not being glib here, but our entire civilization is an anxiety disorder. Who’s not? Kind of like empath. And I say this, you know, some people feel I’m insensitive. You know, I read the book and that’s lovely, but who’s not? Who’s not deeply sensitive at their core? Who's not deeply empathic at their core?

So this is something that we get questions on a lot too and I’m sure it’ll come up from this interview. When you have someone that you know and that you love and they’re grieving and they’re experiencing a really hard time. From a spiritual perspective, how can we genuinely support those that we love when we know this is something they’re going through?

You know, I used to joke that I knew the inventory at every gift shop at every hospital in Los Angeles because I was so loathed to go upstairs. I was scared. Like, what am I gonna say? What am I gonna do? Until I realized just be present. It's not what you’re gonna say or what… it’s that you’re going. And then also I learned being around people who were dying, they’re gonna minister to you every bit as much as you’re going to minister to them. So it’s a gift to you as much as to them. Jews and Catholics have ancient traditions. They’re told what to do. Catholicism and Judaism really has it down. Jews: women start cooking, the men sit shiva. Catholicism also has a lot of ritual ceremony. A lot of Protestants kind of stand around and don't know what to do. And so this is one of the ways where if you were part of an ancient religion or tradition you’re really served by being told what to do. The ceremony to participate in and so forth. Sometimes you’ll say to somebody, “Did you go to the funeral?” And you’ll hear somebody say, “No, you know, I’m grieving in my own way.” And I wanna slap them and say, “It’s not about you.” It’s his wife or her husband and the children and they’re gonna see that people are there and people care. Just be there. You know, we’re women, we know about that. You know, you’re going through something, you call a friend. “Will you come over?”

Yes.

Just come over.

Just be with me.

Be there. You know, just be with me. Sometimes I… well, sometimes people will just say… I’ve been with people, let’s say somebody just lost her husband and I’m with another friend and afterwards I’ll say, “I’m surprised you didn't mention it.” And they’ll say, “Well, I didn't wanna bring it up.” As though she’s not thinking about it! It can be so meaningful when people say, “I’m really sorry. I heard about your loss.” Just be there. There’s nothing fancy to do but to say that you care. You know, in my life when I’ve been through things, even like we were talking about the congressional campaign, which I’m not in any way comparing to the loss of a loved one. But it was so nice, I’d just be walking down the street and someone saying, “I voted for you and I’m really sorry. I’m really sorry that you lost.” And it would just… there’s nothing like people just saying that they care. But we’re… we need to be proactive around sad things. Don't try to help people distract themselves from their sadness. Join with them in a moment of empathy.

Would you be open if we closed with a beautiful prayer from the book?

Thank you. I’m honored that you call it beautiful. And you picked one out here.

I did. It was one that actually brought me to tears...

Thank you, Marie.

...when I first read it. There’s a lot in the book that I think everyone should read, but this one in particular.

Thank you. Yeah. Dear God, I surrender to you the pain that is in my heart. I give to you my failure, my shame, my loss, my devastation. I know that in you, dear God, all darkness is turned to light. Pour forth your spirit upon my mind and help me to forgive my past. Make my life begin again. Restore my soul and bring me peace. Comfort me in this painful hour that I might see again my innocence and good. I have fallen, dear God, and I feel I cannot rise. Please lift me up and give me strength. Set my feet upon the path to peace and help me not to stray again. I pray for forgiveness. I’m crushed by my failure. Please show me who I am to you that self hate shall not defeat me. Help me remember and reclaim my good. Help me become who you would have me be and live the life you would have me live that my tears shall be no more. Amen.

You are a legend.

Right back at you. You’re not quite a legend yet because you’re not old enough, but you are already such a bright light on the planet. You’re one of those first name people, Marie.

I adore you. Thank you so much…

I adore you too.

...for your work, for coming on the show, and for continuing to do everything that you do.

Thank you, Marie. I love you.

I love you too.

God bless you, honey.

Now Marianne and I would love to hear from you. What’s the biggest insight that you’re taking away from this conversation and how can you turn that insight into action in your own life? Now, as always, the best conversations happen at MarieForleo.com, so go there and leave a comment now.

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