How to Speak Like the 1% to Get Anything You Want with Bill McGowan

you have coached so many people in these high stakes situations. Everyone from Kim Kardashian, Jeff Bezos, countless superstar athletes and CEOs. What are some of the common issues that even high performers struggle with when it comes to speaking, and how to search for it? I had had an individual session with Kim, and she was about to be in a forum that was just not you. Her usual forum. She was going to be interviewed by Steve Forbes in the most powerful Women's Summit or the most influential Women's summit, and she was going to be talking about Skims, and she wanted to be wearing the hat of an entrepreneur and a businesswoman. And so it was really just about, how are we messaging around this and how are we executing? And she said, you know, I think this would be great for my entire family because we've actually never been media trained and thought, really, how is that possible? And she said, no, we've learned from doing. And although we feel really comfortable in front of the camera, we don't know what the ground rules are. And they had done, you know, a recent interview that I think went a little sideways and they weren't happy with how it went. So they wanted to be able to have influence over the direction of the conversation, but not overtly make it seem like they were hijacking the interview, which I think is a really finessed point. And when we watch other people being interviewed, particularly politicians, and they, in a very clumsy way say, well, I'm not here to talk about that. What I am here to talk about, that is the worst possible way to control the conversation, because it's so transparently manipulative. And what we coach people at my company to do is how do we create the impression that this is a spontaneous, give and take conversation that we're having right now and not make it feel messaged and make it feel genuine? And the idea is it should be genuine, because this is material that we've tossed around in advance that represents your best storytelling and your most your deepest thoughts and your point of view on things. a lot of publicists have said, oh yeah, no, she's great. She's done a million interviews, she's famous, she knows how to behave on camera. So that's not what this training is about. In fact, the more famous she is, the more challenging it's going to be for her to pull the conversation to where she wants, because there are so many things of interest they'll want to talk to her about. So it's really in that piece, it sounds like, and it might be. So I want to talk about this on two tracks, because obviously folks at that level, they're going to have a communications team, potentially they're going to have a PR, they're going to have people that are kind of setting up someone like me for, or so many folks in our audience. They got that right. So they're probably the one booking it. Or it might be, you know, maybe they hire a temporary. Or something like that. How would you recommend just so we have it clear that if it's a solo person and they're, if they just landed a big podcast or they just landed a big immediate get help with a request again, not for the questions in advance, but to make sure that they're showing up in a way where they can both deliver for, the interviewer and the audience and also with themselves. Traditionally, the way people have prepared for media interviews is a little bit backwards in that they sit down and they try to predict every possible question. They could be asked, and then they craft answers to those questions. And that's what you see reflected in one of the worst training tools on the planet. And that's the suggested Q&A document or the FAQ. I've never known anybody to really thrive with that tool in front of them, because what you get is this mess is about or pages long, about questions. The questions are written out verbatim and so are your answers. And I've never seen anybody in the middle of an interview say, you know, that kind of sounds like the question. Mila. Page five. What was the answer to that? It's not happening. So instead of preparing from a very defensive posture of what am I going to be asked? And then what am I going to say? Sit down and ask yourself, what am I greatest hits? Not just in terms of my talking points and the the, messages I want to convey, but what are the stories I tell that really illustrate those points in a relatable way? What are some examples I can give to make it specific and visual? Is there a data point or two that I can deliver with context attached to it, not just spewing out numbers? What are the best components of my narrative? And now let me look at the questions as openings and opportunities to get to those things. Yes, from a defensive posture, I think you should always be prepared for what we would call the doomsday question or the Achilles heel question. What is totally reasonable that I could be asked that would put me a little bit on the spot, and if it exists on the web, there's a good chance your interviewer is going to know about it. Don't think that they're just showing up unprepared. I paid such close attention when I'm watching anything because I messaging, first of all, it's fascinating. And to me, for my lens, it's marketing. You are selling you are selling a perspective. You're selling a possibility. You're selling a mission like all that comes through your words. And so I'm fascinated by this, particularly because when a hard question comes at you and it's been to your point, it's like, why am I here to talk about that? Sometimes I see it as strength, like I've seen, for instance, like I've seen Nancy Pelosi, like, oh, I don't worry about that. And then she like instantly, I've seen her do it. NASA and then, you know, you can watch someone like President Trump, you know, just someone will ask the question and he goes in this and I'm always just watching communication because I'm fascinated with it. So in the context of let's it could be the Kardashians, it could be anyone, situation where that stuff is prominent. Do you and your company train people to be able to not only address the question, but still control the narrative? Because I feel like that's a razor's edge of the dance to not be like, someone's avoiding it and tell me, well, what do you hear from people sometimes is, oh, gosh, are you gonna turn me into a politician here? Because I'll say to them, have you ever been media trained before? And they'll say, yeah. So what did you remember from that session? Don't answer the question. Hey, a wrong answer. That is not what it's supposed to be about. I would say most people going out to be interviewed, probably to % of the questions they get probably pretty benign, probably just very straightforward. There's no trapdoor, there's no third rail. And what we coach people to do is let's decide what are simple, concise, declarative sentence that leads. The answer is when we get asked a question on this topic and because. The reason we hate politicians is because they don't answer the question % of the time. So now I'm only asking people to potentially not directly answer the question % of the time, and then it doesn't become this. Tell that now you're not having a real conversation with somebody. So that's what I coach people to do. Here's how we're going to lead the answer. And here are the other important things we want to convey. When this topic of conversation comes up. I love that. And so for anyone watching or listening right now, if they're getting ready for a podcast interview again, they're on a book launch or they're trying to pitch their new product service idea. It can be on social media, or it can be to get VC funding. Some of the ways to prepare for people to ask you questions like do's and don'ts. It sounds like understand some of your greatest hits. This key stories down. And I actually want to tell a story about how to shorten my story. And to where we're going. Yeah. If you're great at stories having a couple of data points and contacts, being able to go right into an example if there's a contact, media definition or something that's unique to you and say, oh, here's an example of anything else that we can do to show up again, we don't have the benefit. I want everybody to get too damn good. It's so rich. And I was telling Bill off camera, I was like, I'm reading. And I'm like, oh, wow, I need to practice that. Oh, wow. But there's so much and I'm so glad this is a Bible that. Is there anything else for, people to get started and then prep for an interview that you'd want to tell? Whenever I write an email to somebody, when I finish it, I'm never feeling like I'm finished. My first question is, how do I cut a quarter out of this? Yes. That's great. % of I know can go right away. And how can I get it down to or lines? So I would say that most people over talk, and the quickest way to lose an audience is to go on some rambling, circuitous, redundant narrative where people, you know, inside they're thinking, yeah, I get the point. Just like, move on. And you never want to overstay your conversational welcome. Every answer can come down to a more concise response. And I think that that is a discipline you develop, when you understand that when you begin to talk about something or you begin to answer a question, what I'd like you to do is have a general conception of what the arc to the finish line looks like, and what the finish line consists of. Doesn't mean you have to know the the answer or what you're going to say verbatim, but it does mean structurally, how am I getting from point A to point F? And if you can't see the finish line, by the time you open your mouth to talk, you're talking too long. That is probably a good litmus test. I also love to that you said from A to F. This is how my mind works. You didn't say a to b m A to Z. You said eight F, which is unexpected and being unexpected and being original and having screens be. Well you're, you're a master at this. The scream job right. The scream job is your creation and it's brilliant for a number of reasons. One of them is it falls into two of the categories of a chapter we have called the Magnificent Seven, which is the stickiest ways you can present your ideas. So the scream job in your world is a twisted cliche because everybody's thinking it's the dream job, but it's actually the scream job. And it's also something that I call a creative label. And when we give labels to things, people tend to remember them really well. You have the added benefit of it being an acronym, which makes it doubly memorable. So you're totally on track with this nerdy person when afterwards we'll talk more about. Yeah. Okay. So speaking in public like this is one of these crucial I was so excited because our, my dear friend really is who actually introduced, that her off camera is awesome and I'm excited. But one of the things I was talking to my friends is like, even if I do this for a living speaking in public, it's not my favorite. To stage work. And we'll get to preparation later, because I want to just reveal to you how I torture myself and, you know, might be able to give me some tips to help, but I think speaking in public also terrifies most people. We know this. Why do we struggle so much to communicate? And what are some of the most common general mistakes that we we all make? Brevity is one of them. Jerry Seinfeld has a great joke about you know, they they took a survey of the things that people fear the most and, and public speaking was number one, death was number two. They said death was number two. That means if you're at a funeral you'd rather be in the coffin. They're giving the eulogy and there's a lot of truth to that. And we find that the more prepared you are, the less nervous you'll be. That's a that is an unshakable ratio. But years ago, we worked with Susan Cahn, who wrote the book quiet. And, it's a great book. And one of her theories is that when we stand on a stage and we look at a hundred pairs of eyeballs looking at us, it triggers something primitive in us where we may have been dinner or prey to a pride of lions eyeballing us and sizing us up. So there is a fight or flight kind of instinct that kicks in, and we have a whole a group of tactics that people can employ to try to minimize those nerves. Everything from the right kind of breathing before you go on stage. Because most people, when they get nervous, start. Many hyperventilate, many hyperventilating. They take shorter, shallower breaths and they're not even really aware they're doing it. And what happens is they're actually depleting their lungs of the air they need to project. So when you go on stage or you see somebody presenting in front of you and they get that shake or tremble in their voice, yes, that's nerves, but that's really a lack of wind that they need to project. So a few good deep yoga breaths before you go out there where you hold this long intake at the top. Slowly exhale through your mouth. Does slow your pulse, and it also replenishes your lungs with the air you need to project. So that is a good tactic, but also just finding for people in the audience who are good, encouraging listeners the smileys, the Nader's, the people who are giving you that affirmation that it's all going well. And if you can find those four people in each quadrant of the room and now shrink the room and realize I'm just talking to four people and they're totally loving what I have to say and move it around the room. That's going to boost your confidence. The last thing I ever want when I'm in front of a room, is to catch the eye of somebody who's like, you know, doing that on their phone. I'm thinking, oh my God, I am bombing up here, right? It's a real confidence killer. Yeah, yeah, I have to watch myself because I'm from Jersey and I know I just call people out and, you know, Hey, what are you doing? Yeah. Or, you know, we can take a break if that's really important. But the other thing that happens that kicks in is that people, when they get nervous, adrenaline makes everything speed up. And the last thing you want to have speed up is your vocal pace. Because the faster you go, the more mistakes you're going to make. The faster you go, the more filler language you have. And there is something inherently apologetic about speaking fast. It's almost sending a message to the audience that you don't deserve to have the floor. And I know that you're bored. You're not really interested in what I have to say. So if I just blow through this, you'll be bored for less time. That's the that's the sub conscious message you're sending. I have, an example outside of the world that's speaking, but inside the world. My birthday last year, Josh and I went to, an usher concert. Oh, great. And, lover of the usher and all of my s. Was so struck. How much time usher takes would have. And I was picking up every form of commenting after, Josh is an actor, and, this is what I do for a living. So again, I'm fascinated by people on stages and just observing their presence, observing every aspect of production. And I loved when he would just stand there and say nothing. You know, as a counterpoint to what you were saying in terms of rushing. And I'm not supposed to be there. He delighted in having all of us, the entire audience, like, I don't know how many thousands of us, mostly women, but a good number of, well, who were eating up our ability to just be with him, allowing us to just kind of be in his presence, you know, in some could perhaps interpret that as like a sense of coffee. I was like, I'm still here. Like everyone was so present, and it was so captivating. His dance moves. So, the dancer, part of why I went to the concert was to see usher and his moves. And there was one part of the show where he had roller skates on. Yeah, s. If y'all are old enough, you know what I'm talking about. These are not roller blades. These are roller. Yeah, with the two in the front, the two in the back. Yeah. And it's like a whole jam that goes down. And it was really like, very rough. And I loved most the parts when he took it slow. So I think that that note of slowing down, it's so counterintuitive to so many of us that it is such an effective practice. I want to talk about, lack of brevity and being long winded. This is something we talk about in writing copy as well. We talking about our emails, and I'm constantly looking at my messaging on like when my first draft is written, like, damn, you see a lot. Yeah. I mean, I'm like, that can go. Did all that come out of my mouth? Yeah. Like sometimes this has been applied when people have interviewed me, they're like, hey, to me you're like, okay, yeah. What ends up happening is they record the conversation and turn that into an article. And then I see it and I sound like a friggin idiot. Well, you're reading the transcript. You're not reading what they wrote, didn't. Yeah. And it's interesting because if you look at the transcript, if you're doing research of somebody who's been interviewed on a TV show or on the web, and you look at the transcript, it does look somewhat illiterate for most people think I'm an idiot. Yeah. Wow. But that's and you're hitting on something really important, Marie. And that is there are two styles of writing. There's writing for the eye, which is what happens when you sit down at your laptop and you bang something out. But there's also writing for the ear, which if you've worked in the media, you develop this ability to write the way you speak. And stylistically they're very different. And so when we're coaching people to develop their content, what we implore them never to do is sit down at their computer and write it, because when they get up to deliver it, it's going to be long winded. Complex sentences, introductory phrases, parenthetical clauses. Nobody's going to want to listen to that. Yes, sir. And, it's also very difficult to deliver that in a conversational, casual way. It typically sounds very formal, very stilted. What we tell them to do instead is make an outline for yourself of what it is you want to say in this talk, and, you can make the outline as sparse or as extensive as you want, and then roll on an app on your phone, whether it's Otter, AI or some other app that will record and transcribe for you and just get up and say it as it would naturally come to you. And don't worry if it's full of starts and stops and mistakes and hiccups, that totally doesn't matter. Just keep plowing forward. Then take the transcript and export it to a word document or whatever you're working from, and make that your rough first draft. And what you're going to find is it's in a choppy or fragmented style that more closely reflects the casual and conversational tone that we're looking to strike. But maybe even more beneficial is you're never going to be at odds with that content. And I hear this a lot from people about how long a process it is for them to feel like they own the content that somebody else has written for them, which is a really difficult thing to do. You're never going to be at odds with this content because you thought it and you said it already. It represents instinctively how I'm meant to communicate this, which is never going to happen if you're taking a prepared content from somebody else, and it's really not going to happen if you're relying on ChatGPT to do it for you. Because not only did you not write it, you didn't even think it. Somebody else did. I'll tell you. So I think it's been what is we hear it's over years that we're doing this kind of work. And I work and just like sharing ideas and training and creating courses and stuff. And over the years, I will say that I have been hard on myself because I have always created all my own stuff. Even though throughout my career I've had copywriters that help, sometimes I'm they've only let someone else create the slides. I'm like, that don't work. I was like the thing out of my mouth. Even for myself. Writing everything is the radical. It was like, that's me writing and me creating courses. I script my courses, but I'm like, my spoken nature is completely different than my written, right? And don't let people try to convince you you're being some kind of control freak because you're not. When you delegate to somebody who doesn't have the ability to mimic your voice, you're just setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment. And they feel terrible because they feel like I'm not accepting the work. How this brain. Yeah, I discovered that with my first book, ten years ago, and I, I'd never written a book before, so I wanted a co author, and she was great. She was tremendous at structuring out the book and making it really appealing. And she was also going to write it based on this enormous idea dump that we had. And I read a chapter and realized, I got to write this thing every single word, because I would not want anyone. No one would read this and think, that doesn't sound like Bill talking to me. Totally. And I will say this when I read this one other and this, but I even though I don't know he so wonderfully conversational and you are super funny. Thank you. Thank you very much. I was like with my coffee and laughing out loud. I was spit on my coffee and I do. I did want to say one thing, just to again emphasize the importance of what Bill teaches, both in this book, in his company and just how critical this is. So when I was doing everything is great, right? Well, actually. And you brought it. Oh yeah, I brought it with me. I didn't like the the power of being able to tell a story shortly. Everything is figure out. Well there's this whole Tropicana armed story that if you've been in my audience, you know, I said a kajillion times when the TV show was like my whole segment is two minutes and seconds tops. I need to figure out, oh, a long one. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Today I have to figure out how to tell this origin story, which really is the set up for the whole entire concept of the book. It explains everything. And I was so proud of myself to get that little gap down to s or less. And I was interested. I was like, oh, that's great. Like the origin story. Great. This is seconds. Like, I timed my messaging out so that I could hit those buttons. Invited back, and I think that that's probably a good part of my obsessive nature. That's fabulous. And then that is why you get asked back. Because nobody in the control room is screaming from the back row, give her a rap, will you? You know, nobody is saying that. And, that's a big problem. That's what those who live in fear of that their guest is going to be a runaway train, and they're not going to be able to step in front. And, so I just finished a really interesting project with Angela Duckworth, and she teaches an MBA class at Wharton, and she wanted me to work with her students on what we call their nd life story. And because one of the really difficult things that young people encounter is what is both the simplest question and the most dreaded question is, so tell me about yourself. And it sounds like it should be a layup, but it's not. And it's really a shot from half court. More like it. And most people go on this long, rambling recitation of their resume, which is not what you're supposed to do at all. And so we worked with all of her students to figure out what is a really concise story you can tell about something you experienced, and how that story is symbolic of something that is critical to your personality and makes you distinctive. That's the formula for the nd story. And you start with, when I was I got kicked out of my apartment or whatever. You decide to start the story with, it is not. Well, I grew up in, Riverdale and I went to school, and that is not hooking anybody. And most people start that way. Well, let's talk about story. Yeah, because I think that is not only one of the most important components of any communication. But I'll tell you two times that I've crafted talks that I thought were semi successful. I opened in a story. Yeah. And it was not a happy kind of story. The moment of was crumbling and those talks had been great. So tell us about storytelling and anything we can talk about the Frances. But the mistake that we make with stories and how we can not have people's eyes is. We've often coached people at Clarity Media Group on how to start a big speech or start a big presentation and we will tell them start cold in the story. Don't warn them that you're about to tell a story. And we were trying to get people to break this habit of what we call signposting. It's all this talking about what you're going to talk about instead of just launching into it. And a lot of times we get a reaction of, well, don't you think the audience is going to wonder, where the hell is he going with this? It's like, that's great, that's engagement. Then now you have the mentally chewing on something, trying to figure out how are you going to get from point A to point D, and now you've got them. Whereas if you start with the dreaded agenda slide and telling them what to expect, people in the audience are thinking, okay, I got another s, but I have to pay attention to this guy. You're not going to hook them. And you mentioned Francis Ford Coppola. There's a chapter in the book that's talking about his storytelling formula, and he says that as a moviemaker, you should figure out what your three best things are, and you should take your best thing and close the movie with it. You take your second best thing, and you lead the movie with it, and then you find some natural place in the middle for your third best. And he's talking about moviemaking. But moviemaking is storytelling, giving a big speech presentation that storytelling and I often think that people don't necessarily appreciate the importance of hooking the audience right from the get go. And also finishing with a bang, because there is this, study we have in the book called the primacy recency effect, that studies have shown that what you say in the first minute or two and the last minute or two has higher engagement and higher retention than anything you say in the middle. So strategically placing your most important ideas goes a long way towards being memorable. I want to talk a on the split on my coffee. Minute. So I gotta read this y'all who? I have been on a crusade against this word and for a while, you are the spark that expresses their desire to be a part of my wellness journey. There's no journey. Happiness. I cannot tell you every time that somebody tells me they're taking me on a journey or this is your journey, I'm like, Yeah. So cliches you say the more you blend in, the less you stand out in, the less memorable you are. There are other big ones or there are ones that you've seen lately that you're like, can we just stick a fork in this thing? Well, all across the ecosystem and it's baked into our DNA and we're going to be, you know, doubling down on this and doing a deep dive on that. And, and, all across the value chain and saying, what is this nonsense? Can I tell you? You cured me of one because I actually, you know, I yeah, go deep on my interviews and I'm like, let's unpack. I was like, oh, Bill just called my ass out because unpack this or unpack. Yeah. It was really, you know, it's interesting. Language is not like not unlike fashion. And when you have a killer outfit and you, you love it, and then you get out in the street and a year later and you realize, wow, everybody's like, wearing what I've been wearing for a year. I think it's time to move on. Language is kind of the same thing when you, you know, some at some point somebody said, let's unpack that. And I bet you somebody thought, oh, that's kind of a clever, interesting new way of saying it. And then it's no longer clever and new. It's tired and old and overused. It's now in that cliche category, time to move on and create a new one. Yes. Okay. Levity because yeah, this was really interesting for me in the book. This distinction between we all love humor and we often talk about it like no one doesn't want to have more fun, right? Every single person. Yeah. It's like we call this more, in our lives. So what's the distinction between it? When people hear that, they're like, oh, not funny. I don't know how to tell you. Yeah, I love that you made that distinction. Between injecting humor or levity into your content versus telling a joke. So if you could unpack that, I'm just going. Excuse me. It's a subtle difference, but I've had a lot of communications executives over the years. Pull me aside right before I'm supposed to train an executive and say, could you do me a favor? Could you please tell them to stop leaning every meeting with a joke? I know he thinks that it's his trademark. And you know that people love it. They don't. And nobody's willing to tell him. We need you to tell him. And, let's start off with a joke they'll love. It is about as bad of advice as picture the audience in their underwear. That those two are should be immediately discounted. Telling a joke is what professional comedians do, and you listen. They make it look really easy on stage. It is not. That is the ultimate high wire act of communication. But if you can see the humorous side of something that you are already talking about, just put a humorous lens through which you want the audience to see it. That's the kind of levity that I'm suggesting. I'm having a little fun with something. As you said, it doesn't really matter what the topic is. People basically want to be entertained. They don't want to have to sit through something and feel like it's been tedium from start to finish. They want a little, little levity, a little break. They want you to help them see it through a very different, unorthodox lens. And, you know, there's usually some opportunity in every speech or presentation that I coach, people that just have that moment of fun and just to break up the monotony because it does become monotonous. Yes. So it also speaks a little bit to energy. And this was one of the other things which you've got great energy on camera by the way. Absolutely spectacular I appreciate. Yeah. And you know with my team who I love that there are days. But Josh for almost all of us right. I try my best to give caption. But some days I'm just like mama for example. It's just not lining up any who I've always told my team like, hey, I'm going to do a couple takes of X, Y, or Z because I have to put on different hats. There's like, right now we're in our content creation hat. Sometimes if I'm doing ads for a course or then I'm in, my teacher's on or whatever, and I try and bring fresh or different energy. And there's been times there's like, we I was the energy sprite in this so freaking hard when I think when you were in your previous career, you know, the whole the energy just wasn't there. Yeah. You said, like what? What is that meeting? Should I start flailing my arms? Yeah. Like it is the most frustrating bit of feedback. That's really non feedback. And unspecific. And I just wanted to highlight this because it was one of the most useful things I've read in a while. Oh thank you. Your definition of energy is your visible enthusiasm for the value of the information you're sharing. I was like, dude, I can I get it? Because there's been times, if I'm being honest, I'm like, do I need to make this ad again? Yeah, like I've said this so many times and that's on me right where I need to find. Enthusiasm. So let's talk about let's just talk about energy for a minute because I sure so critical. Josh and I have talked about this a bunch and he's been really instrumental for me because he can detect probably less what I am doing. Marie. Yeah. Like a little bit off over the top. Not feeling it versus he's like, you can just be you. I'm like, I'm afraid that that's boring. So let's just talk about the power of energy in presentations. It's definitely important to lead by example, and you're trying to get an audience jazzed about something. And if they don't detect that, you're enthusiastic about how transformational this could be for them or not. It doesn't even have to be transformational, just helpful. And you're putting out an idea to them and trying to always have in the back of your mind, wow, they take this to heart. It could make an enormous difference in their daily life and be able, through your tone of voice and everything, convey this sense of just imagine how great it would be if, because you were speaking in a more concise way. Every meeting that was minutes became minutes. Just imagine how great that would be for your day, not instead of just rolling from one meeting to the other and having that fatigue setting in. Imagine having ten minutes to just listen to music back at your desk. And what I think most speakers need to do is project in a very detailed way, how good the outcome could be and what that looks like over the rise. Like I've seen how good that can be. And so that's why it's so important to be concise. And it's like it's selling the dream. Like oftentimes that we're talking about, in a business context of, helping people fall in love with or my intent to help people fall in love marketing and selling. Sell them the dream. To your point, you know what's possible on the other side of this obstacle or that being true. That's why you're seeing that's like you have to be enthusiastic about it. And I love sometimes a little reality TV. Not all the time. Ryan Sergent, who is, you know, the I don't know, I don't know him personally, but I've seen him on and off things. And there was one clip in his Netflix. It's like selling Manhattan, and I get that name wrong. But I love what he said because he's like, selling is the transfer of enthusiasm. I was like bingo. Absolutely to this energy thing and this energy idea because even if you're not selling a product or service, you are selling an idea, that in your communication you're trying to get other people to at least pay attention to your work. And I'm so aware of that, especially in the hospitality industry. You know, when people show you a room in the hotel and when they tell me, oh, this is the best room in the hotel, I don't know, it doesn't excite me. But if they show me, if they bring me up and say, you know what I love about this room? You can see the corner of Hyde Park just over there. It's that has a lot more credibility for me than this broad, generic sell job. Yes. It's now got a piece of them in it as well. And it's just amazing to me how many people in companies who have gone through sales training a don't know how to sell. Yes, yes. So one of the big pieces in the book is the Magnificent seven, tools for making your work stick. What are like there's seven of them. They're amazing. Again, as I told you guys. That if anyone's going to turn a camera on or start to prepare a presentation or a speech or anything. Book. Oh I will. What is one of your favorites of The Magnificent Seven? Like we've talked about, original definition is not really what came into energy, but what's another one of your favorite. The creative label. I love. And you know, if anybody is a fan of Curb Your Enthusiasm at Larry David has made a living on the creative label. In fact, every episode hangs on some creative label, whether it's stop and chat or chat and Cut or The Big Goodbye or the big salad from Seinfeld days, every single episode has some kind of creative label, siren abuse. And they're memorable. They stick in your mind. In fact, we were working with someone yesterday, and they were talking about the idea of a total addressable market for a product or service. This was somebody from a venture capital firm, and the idea was, don't think about the depth of the Tam, think about the breadth of the Tam. And so one of the recommendations that we were we were making to this person was, what if you put just the word tam on a piece of Silly Putty and you stretched the Silly Putty horizontally so it widened and in fact, we could call this we could give this a creative label. We could call it the Silly Putty principle. And she says, I love that. And now a lot of people would probably say the audience is going to think I'm a moron if I do something like that. It's like, no, actually they're going to remember that because it doesn't sound anything like any other pitch, any other presentation they've heard in the last months. And I guarantee you they will take it away. Yes. And it's memorable. And, you know, to think about this, which I love and thought about this, in our own work, like I love commercials. I, I grew up on the commercials. I was like, if I was going to have another career, if I could have done infomercials, and, and I've always wanted to demonstrate stuff. And what you just took was this concept and you actually physical. And also imagery. It's like, that's brilliant. You know we have as human beings these movie reels spinning through our heads at all times and we're very visual creatures. We need to grab a hold of pictures to make sense out of the world around us. And when people get up in front of a room and they speak in a very abstract and theoretical way, they're not feeding images to those movie reels that are spinning. And when you don't do that, your audience makes up their own images to fill that reel. And that's what daydreaming is. People will grab a hold of something to visualize if you're not giving it to them. So when you're in front of a room of people, ruthlessly gain control of that movie. Reel in your audience's head and fill it with images of every point that you can make. It doesn't. It sounds more difficult than it is, but you have to speak in a visual specific and anecdotal way as opposed to theoretical, abstract, and vague. I love it. In fact, that brings us right to where I wanted to go. That notion of a ten minute warning, I feel like is really, really important, especially in a context if you are selling, if there, are kind of thing. So what is the ten minute warning? And tell me about what are some easy tips that people can use when they know they're coming up to, let's say it doesn't happen that every ten minutes. Yes it does. And I was a little skeptical. This is a study, and we have it cited in the book that the maximum amount of time you can count on the attention of your audience is ten minutes. And after at the ten minute mark, something has to change. It cannot be just more of the same from the first ten minutes, and which I thought ten minutes. That sounds long to me. But anyway, and so when I'm working with people who have to speak for minutes, say, and they have maybe three video clips they want to use in this presentation, I'll tell them, let's pace them out. Let's let's start. You have a sizzle reel I understand you want to lead with. Then we'll put that right at the top. We'll two we'll go at the ten minute mark. And reel three will go at the minute mark. And so we have them evenly spaced out. So every ten minutes something is happening that is represents a change. Or it could be an exercise or it could be you showing the results of a study or just something to break up the patterns. And in fact pattern disruption is what keeps the audience's attention, to a much higher degree than just more of the same in a very narrow range. I want to talk about, prepping and rehearse. I believe. Right. You're a very big fan. Yep. Rehearsing big believer. I'm curious of your take. Memorize in the scripts, talk, word for word. And I want to say some context here. That has been what I need to show up in a high stakes situation. So Oprah was having this thing called Super Soul Talks. This was back in late and they asked me to come do it. And I was like, you have minutes. And so and I'm also and most people know this about me, I'm a bit of a perfectionist. I'm a maniac when it comes to like certain things. And that's both how I torture myself and also how I speak. So you talk about the double edged sword right. Yeah. Percent. It's got its pluses and its minuses. And I was so for obvious reasons terrified. Does it get much more high stakes than that. So I worked it out. And still I drilled every damn word into my body because yeah I knew I was going to be freaked out. Yeah. I mean. In this one. Sure. For years. Thanks for having me like. Yeah. Deliver it girl. Yeah. Better make my team make a good choice. Yeah. Right. And I've done that a few times. Like I developed a new talk within the last couple of years. And it was on a, topic. We have a program that's called time genius. And that was another one of the talks where I dropped in, drawn the story first. And that was more of a minute talk that was like, let's do a And so it was a brainchild of like, can I memorize God? And while they were all my stories know I write all my stuff. But I was like how the hell am I going to memorize something word for word for It's like I did it. Yeah. It's there another way because it's daunting. It's funny, I, I just had this happen a couple of weeks ago. I had to give a talk at an event and there were no slides, no script, no nothing. And you're just hanging out there. And so what I did was excuse me, I, I wrote it out because I feel with my TV background, I can write for the ear. And then what I did with that was I collapsed it then into bullets. So I pared it down, language wise, and then I merely gave topic headers. So I had say one through like you'd almost have for slides. And topic one was going to be about levity, and topic two was going to be about brevity. And, and what was important to me was understanding what's the Segway line that gets me from topic one to topic two, because that's where people most struggle. And so the the Segway lines that helped me stitch all this together were the last to go off the card. I wanted to really know those backwards and forwards and like you, I just said it ten, times. You know, there's there's yeah, yeah, there's there's a, there's an to ratio that if you've got a minute talk, you should be practicing out loud for two hours. This is great. Please do that again because I'm sure for every minute of content you should be practicing and rehearsing out loud for eight minutes. So you should be doing it eight times at least. So let's say you've got to do a presentation on a Friday. You know, do it a couple times on Monday, a couple times on Tuesday. Yeah. And so on. And that's usually what it takes in order to really know and own the content. Now that's assuming that you wrote it and you did. And I did. But if you haven't written it, I would say that ratio is probably to Yeah. In order to really get it under your belt, Steve Jobs, who people think was born with some great orator gene, he wasn't he put in the hard work and he practiced every product launch keynote times. And so by the time he got on stage, he knew every move. There was no nothing that was going to come up to surprise him. He knew all the transitions. He knew all the punchlines, so that when he went to deliver it, he was no longer focusing on what word comes next. He's focusing on here's where I drop my voice and keep up the intensity to make this point hit deeper so he's able to free himself from the content. Recall considerations, and now focus on the tools that make the execution memorable. Yeah, you know, varying your pace, your pitch, your projection, and using your voice as the musical instrument it is in order to keep people captivated. It's so wild. I've often had these conversations in my head, and I'm curious if you've ever thought this is so, but the YouTube article that I know, so, dear friend who's like, so gifted, Marianne Williamson. Yes, sir. I know Marianne for a very long time, and since so many of her talks and, I would always just sit there and watch Marianne, I'm like, she is a genius. Yeah, I, I don't know, I haven't asked her, but I, I actually think I might have asked her once if she prepares, but I think she's got a gift from like, another place. Yeah. Colleague. Friend. Yeah. I'm sure you've seen like Gary Vaynerchuk. Like sometimes you just come Gary Vee. Yeah. Like such like you have a real gift. Yeah. Admiration. I'm just like, I don't know what planet y'all were born on. I was not born on that. So admire and respect that. I just like those are special humans. I'm not think. Yeah, I think there is. It's like Robin Williams was in comedy, you know, you can't replicate that. But I do feel that there are there's also a group of people who work so hard on something that they achieve that state of flow where they make it look effortless, like watching somebody like Roger Federer play tennis, and he makes it look so effortless that you actually watch it and and delude yourself. Yeah, I, I bet I can go down there and like hit a few with him and you just lose all perception of how incredibly difficult this is. Yeah. Another, a Tony, Tony Robbins. Yes. I'll sit and talk with Tony. Well, here's one of the things I know about him specifically. It's like he has been doing his craft for decades, and, and that so much of his content and so much of his wisdom and ideas, like they live so deeply in his body. Yeah. And then on stage, like I've just seen him in so many different contexts, right? Yeah, yeah. When I watch great people and actually I'll say this, do I think like Rumi, he was on the show not so long ago. We just had such a ball. Yeah. Because he can play so well in this context. Yeah. He knows exactly what we're going sometimes. And then we can take guitar solos and yeah, it's it's it's unspoken communication, which is so delightful. And people like Tony Robbins, you know, he doesn't have the hours of Malcolm Gladwell. He's got the and hours. Yeah, yeah. No, brother doesn't stop. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about prep and practice a little bit more because I think that it is underrated. The more comfortable I am. Like, I remember I really loved my book tomorrow because I was just so in it. Yeah, I love that from beast mode. And it was just so alive in my body that I could get to that flow state with so much. I wouldn't be like that today if you if we just did a whole interview on the book. But prep and practicing, let's say someone is they can get your book, but they're not able to work with a coach. Like, is there anything that works or what doesn't besides sheer repetition? For example, sometimes I will do my rehearsing, like in the morning, take a break and just, yeah, conscious time. And then, you know, kind of kind of revisit all the space repetition in a, in a way. Right. I don't think I'm actually pulling the right term there. But it's, it's an idea or a concept that's relevant from which learning, it's almost like you alternate the space. Someone will correct me on his own work. But are there tips or tools that work or that don't work when it comes to prepping and practicing? Should people build themselves? That's the number one. That's the number one tip because the video doesn't lie like your friends do. When you come off a podium and you say, how did I do? Don't ever ask somebody, how did I do? Because people lie and they say, oh, you were great. Yeah. You should come off the stage and say, give me two things I should do differently next time. Really swing the door open on God. I feel, don't you? Don't. You're you're so much stronger than I am. I'm so vulnerable. When I come on stage, I feel like I'm like a little baby. But. But you. Deep down, Marino, it went well. I mean, there has to be a certain awareness that. Yeah, that was that was pretty good. And I felt the energy from the audience. But I'm a perfectionist and I need to know what are the two things I don't do differently next time. So that is helpful. And people are reluctant to give critical feedback. But the video is so important. If you look at professional sports, players are watching video of what happened five minutes ago, instead of waiting three days because it's such a great learning tool and the majority of people are completely unaware that they're speaking fast, that they have all these verbal and physical tics that detract from their executive presence and, recording people in our training sessions is just standard and, of course, elicits the number one thing that people say, which is, you're not gonna make me watch that now, are you? Like, everybody says that, so I get how cringey it can be, but, it does reveal an awful lot. And when we show people the video back, % of the people make the same observation. And that is. Wow, I look kind of bored there, amazed at how flat they are. And they thought, wait a minute, I was just up there. I was really bringing it. I was like that lively, I was animated, and where did that guy go? And so they realize from watching the video that would probably. LS a little over the top to you is probably just about right. I've learned that. And I'll tell you, I remember in my fitness days. Had never been the lead in a fitness video before and that was a dream of mine right back of growth. And when I was getting up on the steps they made me put myself on me and here I'm thinking I'm doing like all the advanced fitness. Yes. I saw that video bell. My arm was like yeah. Oh. Oh you like it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So the video it's like it is cringe. It is hard. But damn sure it does. And I think what it also exposes for people is that they sometimes go into a big communication opportunity with the wrong mindset, that they define success as the absence of mistakes and perfection is not what you're going for. If you define the absence of mistakes as your goal, then you will flatten out. You will play not to lose. And you ask anybody. In professional sports, when you start playing not to lose, you lose instead of going for it. And I tell people, you know, I could care less if you have a little stumble here, a little hiccup there, who cares? Nobody's going to remember that. But they will remember that you brought it with real energy. And, and sometimes when people get freed of that burden, it relaxes them and they're able to really execute. Let's talk I Analogy I love that you had a chapter at the end. And I thought this was so good. And somewhere in the book you wrote that using our ability to communicate is like a muscle. And if we don't use it it atrophies. So I see so much I communication mostly in email. Yeah. Staggering. I cannot believe how many people like, want me to give them money. And I'm like, dude, all of the I towels and all your stupid emojis and all the triples and like how am I. So tell me about your take on AI how. Because I think that there's a huge opportunity that is going to continue to grow. People that actually know how to communicate and then actually know how to be original and actually know how to connect because there's so much frickin garbage there. It's terrible. I want to hear your perspective. And how can we train ourselves to be so original and so authentic and so unforgettable that nobody is gonna know? Well, the reason I put the I chapter in the book, Marie, is because I found it's so central to the theme of the book, and that is when we communicate, the idea is to be memorable and to stand above the noise and to stand out and be distinctive. And to me, relying on AI is completely antithetical to that. And what you're really doing by relying on that for content creation is your exacerbating this numbing sameness of the way people communicate that makes people tune out. And there's also just something very odd about hearing somebody deliver something that, you know, was the result of the amalgamation of millions of other people's thinking that now is so watered down and un distinctive. And like you said, I think because that's going to gain more prominence. I think the need to have somebody write something or somebody say something through a lens that is different, where I bet in a couple of short years somebody will read something that you've said, screamed job, whatever it is, and they will say no large language model could have come up with that, and that will be a badge of honor. Yes. And I think the people who are not allowing that muscle to atrophy are going to be rewarded. I agree with that. You know, I think about it too, in the context of business, in the context of customer service. This is a little bit off to the side of communication. But I think it's all connected where there is such a disintegration of that human connectivity in customer experience. Talk to someone who understands what the hell is going on. Someone that's giving you their full undivided attention. Issue with wanting to solve it. I'm like I just think the more human this week Brant every aspect of our quote unquote customer journey and looking at it through a business lens from that first interaction all the way through, there's a huge opportunity to win huge and even just the act of listening, if people treat listening as the time they have to wait before they say their next thing instead of what you're doing here is you're listening to my answers and you're rolling with that, and it's influencing the next thing you say. That's what's called the conversation. And, and that's a and that's a dying art. Yes. And, you know, I've been doing a lot of podcasts, obviously, with this book. And I'm enjoying this conversation immensely. And I read the book that that was a big that's a big bonus. That's a big, big bonus. So you know what to ask. But, even in some highly touted ones, there's been a little bit of, going down the list of pre prepared questions and this fear of deviating off of that, which, yeah, I can feel like the high wire act without the net. But you absolutely have to take those chances. You have to wander outside your comfort zone. And there's a quote in the book from Eleanor Roosevelt who said, you should do one thing every day that scares you. And I feel as though that can be adapted to public speaking, every public speaking opportunity. You should do one thing that scares you. Yeah. And try something new. Just one thing. It doesn't have to be radically transformative. But if you saw somebody give a speech or presentation two weeks ago and they did something that really captivated you. Jot it down. Realize, you know, I could. That person's personal style is a little similar to mine. Maybe I can borrow that technique and road test it. Write it down. Try it out. See if it works for you. You and your team have worked with platforms like TikTok. Part of I think this cultural shift that we've experienced where attention spans are short. Is there any lesson that you've learned in this world that's addicted to like seconds. I think, you know when I was reading the book and there's some classic really important principles about opening and closing. where it's like the opening hook is everything. I'm curious if you have any reflections or lessons, whether it was from just how our culture shifted in that way or things that were like, yeah, looks are more important than ever. Yeah, there's no question. I mean, when I was a kid, it was about having the channel changer. Right. The remote. And now it's this how do we stop this? How do you stop the scroll? And the competition to kill the scroll? Is so kill. The scroll is so intense that, it has distorted the way we communicate. I think that opening to seconds is critical to get people to just stop and watch for a second, but I think there will probably be a number of different camps of people who they want to consume all their information in second little nuggets, and then there are some people who will rebel against that and want something deeper, more thoughtful, more insightful, and will feel unfulfilled by the empty calories of seconds. I think it's important is something that I had to try to navigate and dance with just because. And I love it. I love having done this for a long enough time. Perspective to watch things shift and change, and it's always something that I'm playing with myself, too, because, you know, I can look at data and I could hear from like, there's tons of experts now use that for something like, I don't give a Yeah, right. I want to do what feels like in my power ally and intentional of service of my audience. What I genuinely care about them. Like, you know, it's like I can't really do all the cheap tricks in there. Yeah. And it's an interesting thing. Yeah. Try. I think it's really important not to play somebody else's game. Yeah. And I remember years and years ago when the stones when disco was really big and the stones came out with a couple of songs that were kind of a nod to disco, and everybody thought, oh, do you did you really have to do that? You know? And they were sort of pilloried for it and deservedly so. And, so I think knowing what you're good at and sticking with that is important doesn't mean you can't experiment with other things, but trying to transform yourself into something you're not is not not a good strategy. Strategy. So as we wrap, if someone's about to pitch an idea, right, or they're about to launch a product or they're about to go on camera, is there one sentence or one idea that you would want them to put on a post it note? Before they before they go on so that they could be unforgettable every time? I would say that if you could figure out a way to create an analogy for the value of what it is you're pitching, that could be really powerful, and you draw the analogy to something that has already proven to be really valuable. So years ago, Sheryl Sandberg was doing an interview and she this was before privacy, really, genuinely became an issue for Facebook. And she was asked the privacy question and she said, well, you know, I can remember when caller ID first came out, there was all this uproar that my privacy was being invaded and there were calls to regulate it. There were calls to ban it. You know, I don't know anybody today who is % reliant on caller ID and it was a great historical analogy because she's basically saying in that story, yeah, I know you think there are some issues of Facebook, but it's all going to turn out great, and all that fear and hesitation is going to be unfounded, and it will become just this daily tool that you use and can't imagine living without. So that's short, little analogous story. Accomplish an awful lot for her. I love that. Yeah, that takes work too. It's like to be a powerful, memorable communicator. To down and let's bootstrap. It does. And you know whether it's on your phone or a moleskin or whatever. You know we're out for a walk route for a drive. You're off a run whatever it is. Those are when the really good ideas come to you and try to jot them down. And because % of what you think about you forget and realize, oh, that's a really interesting thing that that woman said in that interview. That's a really interesting story. Maybe I'll use that story when I lead my next presentation and think I'm in anecdote acquisition mode. I need to be observant of everything going around me in the world and realize how is that a parallel to what I have to talk about a lot? And I'll just bring it into play creating. You know, my best friend and I always talked about this too, with our our talks with you that struggle the same ways. That's also great for writing in terms of books or any content. Creation is like story that you're like, right? Like right in this simple little stories that in the afternoon. When you're cooking or whatever that to your point I know this happens to me all the time is something's really funny or it happens in a workout class. And then if I don't write it down dude it, it's gone. Yeah. Never to come back. Yeah. No I'm like little anecdotes have literally turned into enormous bits of my content. And so I'm constantly working on that stuff. Yeah, working on that. That is incredible. Time well spent. Yes yes yes yes okay. Anything that you want to leave our audience with besides get your hands. Well, what you said earlier was the best compliment that I love. And that is that you found it funny and you laughed because there are a lot of self help books out there that are, you know, a little medicinal, shall we say. And I wanted this to be a fun, enjoyable read for people. So the fact that you found it like that and I. I'm very grateful. Awesome. Yeah. You stole my. Thank you for the invite. It's a fun conversation. Okay. You can direct any of your questions, comments if you got something big coming up, you know what firm you need to go to. But most importantly, get your little paws on this. Fantastic. And until next time, stay in your game. Keep going for your big dream, because the world needs that very special gift that will make you happy at yourself.

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